Being a Massage Therapist in Professional Sports with Richard Hawes

Join us as we sit down with Richard Hawes, a Registered Massage Therapist who has had over 30 years of experience as an RMT and now works with the Vancouver Whitecaps. Richard's path is anything but ordinary—starting off as an aspiring soccer player, pivoting to a police officer in Hong Kong, and ultimately finding his passion in massage therapy in Vancouver. 

Richard opens up about his personal battle with cancer and how this life-altering experience reignited his passion for massage therapy. From owning a clinic to treating top athletes, Richard's story is a powerful reminder of the importance of following your professional dreams and not settling into a routine job. Listen as he shares invaluable insights on the challenges and rewards of working with high-performing athletes and the significance of maintaining passion in one's career. His narrative underscores the vital role of listening in clinical practice and the profound impact of therapeutic relationships with athletes.

Get an insider's perspective on what it's like to be a sports massage therapist integrated within a professional team. We explore everything from the demanding pre-season schedules and game day preparations to the collaborative efforts of medical professionals ensuring optimal player care. Richard offers a detailed look at the daily routines, the complexities of travel, and the importance of a therapeutic alliance between therapist and athlete. Whether you're an aspiring therapist, a sports enthusiast, or simply someone interested in compelling life stories, this conversation with Richard Hawes is sure to enlighten and inspire.

Chapters

• 0:08 Professional Soccer Player Turns RMT
• 13:49 Journey Through Cancer to Passion
• 23:46 Pursuing Dreams and Avoiding Career Rut
• 30:53 Importance of Listening in Massage Therapy
• 42:41 Busy Days in Professional Soccer
• 51:28 Game Day Football Medical Professional
• 58:21 Life as a Sports Massage Therapist
• 1:08:50 Athletic Treatment and Therapeutic Relationships
• 1:15:13 Importance of Passion in Sports Medicine

Transcript

Eric: 0:08

Hello and welcome to another episode of Purvis Versus. My name is Eric Purvis. I'm a massage therapist, course creator, continuing education provider, curriculum advisor and advocate for evidence-based massage therapy. In this episode, I welcome Richard Hawes from Vancouver, bc. Richard is an RMT with 30 years of clinical experience who now works as the RMT with the Vancouver Whitecaps. In this episode, richard tells us about his journey from an aspiring professional soccer player to being a police officer in Hong Kong and how he ended up in Vancouver and became an RMT. Prior to joining the Whitecaps medical team, richard's career included having a full-time private practice, being a clinic owner and teaching at a massage therapy school.

Eric: 0:47

If you enjoy listening to my podcast, please consider supporting it by making a donation through buymeacoffeecom slash helloob. Purpose Versus is also on YouTube, so please check us out there and subscribe. So thanks for being here and I hope you enjoy this episode. Hello and welcome to another episode of Purpose Versus. I'm excited to have today Richard Hawes, who is an RMT who lives in the greater Vancouver area, and this is going to be our first episode focusing on sport and massage therapists in sport. Richard has a job with the Vancouver Whitecaps, so he's going to tell us a little bit about himself and his journey and his work working in sport, the professional soccer team. So welcome, rich. Thanks for being here today.

Rich: 1:32

Thank you for having me Excited to be here.

Eric: 1:34

Yeah, yeah, we had a great conversation off air, you know, just talking about we'll call it football, because it's really what the sport is. It's played with our feet. But we had a great conversation out there talking about football and yeah, the uh, I'm really glad we've we connected and I met you, I guess, in person for the first time a couple weeks ago, but I know we'd connected online. So I think there's gonna be lots of fun things to talk about today basically football or soccer, I don't mind.

Rich: 1:59

Yeah, yeah, it doesn't. You know many sort of brits get very uh, you know, get very upset about oh, it's not soccer. It's not soccer. In fact it's the most british of words. It was invented by the brits. It was there. You know, people think it was americans who came up with soccer. It's not. It's a british word. It was came up in um. You know, it was came about by the original fa football association in england. So football or soccer, it doesn't matter.

Eric: 2:26

Yeah, because it was an abbreviation, wasn't it? Of Football Association.

Rich: 2:29

Yeah, the SOC and Association is where they got the, and they were trying to differentiate it between other forms of the game, notably rugby, which is a famous private school in the middle of England where, whilst playing a game of original football, a kid picked the ball up and ran with it, and hence rugby was born. But rugby is actually the name of a school in England and it's rugby football.

Rich: 2:52

So, that's how that came about. But yeah, I don't get too worried about soccer or football anymore. If I was worried about that all the time, I wouldn't have much to worry about.

Eric: 3:03

So yeah, yeah, that's true. It is funny, I know sometimes I'll post things online or whatever and it's usually a European will comment. If I say soccer, They'll usually correct me and I'm like whatever, you have to know your audience.

Rich: 3:18

Yeah, know your audience and pick your battles, yeah.

Eric: 3:22

Don't care, I'm just so curious. I mean, this is totally off topic, but uh, like, where does american football come from? Like, how did they call that football so?

Rich: 3:32

same thing in that it was a version of football. Someone picks a ball up. I said I don't know how that all started, but it's just their american version of football. It's just you know, that's just their American version of football. It's just you know, that's just how they. You know there's Gaelic football, there's Aussie rules football. It's just your own sort of laws of the game, rules of the game, and then they just put football in there. It's just happened over time. I don't really know the entire story. I just know where it comes around with sort of football and soccer. But that's my, my, I don't know that is. It's the American version of the game, the Canadian version of of the game, that's it it's funny if you think about hey, every country has like football yeah, different versions of it.

Rich: 4:13

It's yeah, it is what it seems deaf now. Yeah, I'll change it. It is what it is. Yeah, no that's great.

Eric: 4:21

Uh, so, rich, tell us a little bit kind of like, tell us more about, about, like obviously you're not from Vancouver, no, you have a very un-Vancouver accent. So tell us a little about who you are.

Rich: 4:31

I grew up in the UK, northwest England, a little town called Livingston Hands. I grew up there in a very sporting family. My mum was a county tennis player, my dad had been a footballer, I played professional football and then joined the army. Very sporting family. My mum was a county tennis player, my dad had been a footballer, I played professional football and then joined the army, had his career ended short with a terrible Achilles injury. My younger brother was very much a martial artist. He ended up coming very close to going to the Olympic Games in 1988, I think it was South Korea for Taekwondo and so grew up in a very sporting household.

Rich: 5:13

I was very lucky enough that for me I played sort of three sports, but two sports, excuse me, mainly was soccer and cricket. And I was very lucky enough to go to a school that was famed for its sporting programs, although I would argue that it is and should be famed for its whole academic and everything. It's pastoral care, extracurricular care. It just happened to be a school of excellence in sport. Went there. I got a huge bursary to go there. I was very lucky to go there.

Rich: 5:48

Millfield school in somerset in england spent five wonderful years there. Um made a brave attempt at professional football. Um, that didn't work out, so went on to uh get a degree, a very general degree, in sports studies, um, at what is now uh university of chichester again another great time doing that. Um went to my first job out of there was as a coach for bobby charton soccer schools. So the degree was very general in that you could do um, there was anatomy, physiology and a science side to it. There was a social psychology to it, there was coaching to it, there was teaching in it involved in it. Um, and I'd done some uh coach education by then and I got a job with bobby charlton soccer schools, worked there and whilst I was there I was very lucky enough to be asked to be an assistant coach, was very lucky enough to be asked to be an assistant coach for the Hong Kong under-23 team, who were using Bobby Chan's soccer schools as a kind of conduit to organising all their games, training sessions and everything, and I ended up being a sort of liaison stroke assistant coach for them.

Rich: 7:01

Their general manager was a police officer in the Royal Hong Kong Police and he and I got in like a house on fire and at the time I was going to go to physio school. Um, football wasn't going to work out for me professionally, um, and I was going to go on to physio school and I was at a stage where I really just wanted to spend some time working and some money. And he said, look, rather than do a year with a soccer school, why don't you apply for police force in Hong Kong and do three or four years out there? And if you still want to be a physio, come back? So I went through the arduous process of applying to be a police officer in Hong Kong police, which I'd never seen myself as a police officer. But I also knew that they had a football team that played in the professional league in Hong Kong and Jim had said to me look, the chances are, once you've done training school, you'll be seconded to the football team and you know you won't do a great deal of police work. And I thought this sounds like a backdoor way to play in professional football again and in another part of the world. So went through the whole process of applying and you can imagine going to a police force.

Rich: 8:10

Um, it was a nine month process, I think, um, various interviews and all sorts of stuff, and got the job, went out to hong kong, did, uh, nine months of training school, um. Then we played in the first game and ripped my knee apart acl, you name it went and uh, then I remember two or three months later sort of walking in to see my regional commander and sort of him saying, well, what are you going to do now? I said I don't know. He said, well, you're a qualified police officer, you're going to be a police officer now, uh, and then sort of being a police officer for four years I got back to playing soccer but I actually really enjoyed, um, life in the police force. I was not a very good police officer, I'll grant you that um, but I, I got to do it for four years but it wasn't my vocation, it wasn't what I wanted to do.

Rich: 8:56

And during that time I met my uh, my now wife, and we moved to. She was originally from Vancouver. We moved to Vancouver in 92. She had had a car accident, a very minor one, but was having treatment for whiplash type injuries and was seeing an RMT. And I went along with her one day and really didn't know what to expect, to be honest. And he was an RMT working in Vancouver. He was working in a chiropractic clinic and sort of got in and I was kind of really sure I'm gonna see here, but okay, and was thoroughly impressed by what he did and I was like wow, okay, this is, this is different. Maybe I can, you know instead of sort of pursuing the physio role which was going to take me another four or five years of education, you know, look into this, looked into that and blagged my way in as a foreign student to WCCMT and got into WCCMT and was there for two years and then started practicing as an RMT in 94. Opened a clinic in 94 with a guy I met at school. Opened a clinic in 94 with a guy I met at school and you know we had the clinic for together 15 years, myself for another five years. So that was a 20-year journey being a clinic owner.

Rich: 10:18

And all that time I, you know we never said that we were going to. I, you know we never said that we were going to sort of do sport. Sports was going to be everything. We wanted to be a general practitioner massage clinic. We wanted to have all sorts of people come in. We were very much at the time.

Rich: 10:36

In the early nineties we opted into the medical plan. You know probably 90% of RMTs listen to this probably won't even know that term, but you could opt into the medical plan. Um, you know probably 90 percent of RMTs listening to this probably wouldn't even know that term, but you could opt into the medical plan. Back then, um, and you know there were 20 minute treatments. You did a half hour appointment but a 20 minute treatment and I really, really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed what we did. We opened up our own clinic. We got busy very quickly. We had great support from around us, from the medical community around us, and it was a great time. I really enjoyed it.

Rich: 11:10

We were very much on the forefront I think that would be maybe an exaggeration, but we were on the forefront of really trying to immerse ourselves in the medical community. Immerse ourselves in the medical community. Um, you know we, dave and I looked around at the people we wanted to be working with. So doctors, physios, chiros, um, and when we, you know we all, hey, they're all wearing shirt and ties to work. So for many years we wore a shirt and tie to work. People thought we were crazy, but we wore a shirt and tie to work and that was just that trying to be one of the gang, as it were and and it worked well for us. You know, we opened up a clinic.

Rich: 11:50

Five years later, we built a substantially larger clinic because we'd outgrown our clinic and we had it for uh, together another 10 years. Um, and yeah, that was a wonderful, great time for the most part and I will talk a bit more in detail about it if you want but decided back in 2014 that I was going to close the clinic and I wanted to do something different and ended up interviewing at two places Alan McGavin Sports Med and Fortier Sport and Health and I felt very fortunate. They were the only two places I really wanted to go and work. And I interviewed at Alan McGavin with the two owners there and Xenia and Ron, who were the owners there. I think they still are Xenia and Ron, who were the owners there. I think they still are.

Rich: 12:46

You know, xenia did all the talking and Ron was just sat looking at his computer and after about 20-25 minutes, I'm thinking well, he's got nothing to say. He just looked at me and said right, if you come to work for us, what are you going to do when the white caps come calling and they want you full-time. And this was right out of the blue. And I was like I don't think the white caps are going to come, come quickly. He said I've been looking at your resume, I've just been googling you, looking at your history in football. They're going to come for you, they're going to. What are you going to do? And I I kind of sat there and I thought how do I answer that? I was very I think I came out with something. Well, I'd have to look at it at the time and that. But you know, in the back of my head I'm thinking I'd probably jump at it, but I don't see it ever happening. But anyway, I ended up choosing Fortius, which was sadly succumbed to COVID, but it was a wonderful place to work. I really, really enjoyed working at Fortius forties.

Rich: 13:49

If I'm honest, back in 2008, I got diagnosed with cancer and I spent a year and a half going through cancer. And I look at it now and I say I got cancer, but we beat it, and I mean that very sincerely. I was the one who had it, but everybody around me helped me beat it, and that's not, and that is literally everybody. Yeah, um, anybody who's had cancer will probably tell you, or I hope they would tell you that if you're an inpatient at the bc cancer agency, which I was, um, they are fabulous down to you know, obviously, dr kim chi was my my oncologist. He was a fabulous man, but I go down to the orderlies, people who want your breakfast.

Rich: 14:28

You know, I remember one morning waking up feeling terrible and I used to open up. They'd bring your breakfast and it was covered up and they'd open up and I for some reason just loved boiled eggs at the time. And it wasn't a boiled egg, it was something else. And he looked at me and said well, what's the problem? I said I was hoping it'd be boiled eggs every day. After that I got the pulled eggs and it was just that. That's their attention to detail.

Rich: 14:50

Um, anyway, I digress off into to that story. That's another story we can talk about. But uh, did that and and then I think after that I went back to the clinic, I, my business partner David, and and I decided that he was going to step back from ownership and I was going to take over ownership. And I did that and I and I did it because I kind of had to, because I didn't know what else to do. I got two young children at the time. I needed to get back to work um a year and a half off work. My wife had sort of stopped work to help me and we got uh you know, not hugely into debt, but it was time I had to get back to work.

Rich: 15:32

So the clinic was the the obvious option, did that? But I very quickly realized that my heart wasn't in it. Um, I'd lost the passion for it. You know, I tell my kids now whatever you do, I don't care what it is. You know, just love what you do, have some passion for it. And I had lost that. And I knew very quickly and that was a long five years because I'd signed a lease for five years and anybody who worked with me um, back then, you know I wasn't a good clinic owner by then. I had no passion for it.

Rich: 16:04

I sort of I was teaching at the time, which I really enjoyed. I taught at WCCMT and VCMT for about 18 years, part-time, just one day a week. I really enjoyed that. I had got to the stage where I was coaching a lot. So at night I was leaving the clinic and going off and coaching. So I was enjoying that.

Rich: 16:26

Um, I was running my own practice, which I was still enjoying, but I wasn't enjoying running a clinic. I wasn't any good at it. I you know, if you don't have a passion for it, you're not prepared to daily stick with it and get up with it, then, uh, then you need to step away from it. Um, had a lease. I had to see it out, saw it out and at the end of the lease you know remember doing, lying in bed at three o'clock in the morning doing my own SWOT analysis. So strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats, and doing that and, funnily enough, once I sort of done it in my head and I wrote it down, it was like, no, I still got to keep it open. I still got to do it. But looking at the weaknesses, one of the weaknesses was I'm not passionate about it anymore and it was time, time to move on. So that was uh, and that was what stuck out and I made a, you know, a good decision for me. Um, thankfully, all the therapists that worked for me found will work very quickly and that was good. Um, and it was, uh, the best decision I ever made. And I remember walking into when I'd interviewed at Fortius and Erin Reid, who's a wonderful lady, um interviewing at Fortius and she's an RMT and she sort of took me in and I never looked back. I thoroughly enjoyed working at Fortius and I remember the night I knew I was really passionate about it.

Rich: 17:39

Quite, a well-known snowboarder in Canada, who's won one various Olympic medals, was involved in a terrible accident and he'd been hospitalized. And I got a phone call. Uh, it was like a nine, ten o'clock on a saturday night. I was sitting there watching a movie with my wife and there's a phone call from um damian maroney, who's the head of red bull and he worked at 40 years old, had medical guy and he he phoned me and he said look, so-and-so's um at a hospital. He's been in a hospital for a week. He just wants to get treatment, he wants a massage and he had multiple broken bones and all sorts of concussions and all sorts going on. And I remember just going and grabbing a table from the garage and in the car and off we go and I remember driving down to the hotel and thinking it's a Saturday night at 10 o'clock and I can't wait to go and treat this guy and look after this guy.

Eric: 18:28

And it was then when.

Rich: 18:29

I went OK, yeah, I'm back, passionate about what I do, and that was. That was great, so did that. Sorry if this is all long winded, keep going, it's fine, keep going. Yeah, did that work to Fortis? And at the time Fortis had a contract with the Whitecaps to provide RMT services and so we had a team of RMTs that worked like a lot of teams use that sort of that model to have people come in and we did a couple of days a week post-training with the team and we did match days and we did uh. We did a couple days a week post training with the team and we did uh match days and we did a recovery day and on occasion, um, you would travel with the team if they had a long road trip or it was pre-season. So I I started off uh and got involved in that quite quickly and really enjoyed that, and that got me back, circled in, involved in football, um, and really enjoyed that and worked with uh, you know, went on a few trips and worked with other RMTs there. We had a group of great RMTs at uh Fortius that worked with the Whitecaps and and did that, and then, as sort of time went on, I found myself working more and more with the Whitecaps and had a meeting with the head of performance at the time and the head athletic therapist and they kind of said look, the Fortis team has grown and you've got eight or nine therapists now working with the team and our concern is there's no continuity of treatment and we'd really like to bring that team down to a couple of therapists. Would you be interested in leading that? I said, well, look, that's not my position to do that. I, this is not my contract, it's fortius's contract. Um, but I talked to fortius and they were, um, they were, you know, they were fine with it. Um, they wanted to do it as well. They saw the reasoning behind it. So we started to do that.

Rich: 20:27

And then that was before COVID. And then, when COVID happened, everything changed and they said to me you've either got to be in or out. The rules were such that not just the rules from MLS and from the club, but the provincial rules were that you know, you're either in or you're out around. Everyone had to create their own bubbles and and, uh, I said, okay, I'll come in. And that was where my life with the white caps really started.

Rich: 20:55

Um, and I'd never really sort of looked at it and thought, okay, like when I started at 40s, never was like I want to get a full-time job with the caps, I want to get a full-time job with the caps. Because I really sort of looked at it and thought, ok, when I started at Forties, never was like I want to get a full time job with the Caps. I want to get a full time job with the Caps because I really enjoyed working Forties. But it kind of came around and I did a lot of volunteer work for WFC2 while I was working with the Caps because I just loved being around it. I really really enjoyed being around it and it wasn't a question of if I do this I can get a full-time job. I just, like I say, just enjoyed the work.

Rich: 21:28

I just, you know, we were going for post-training recovery and we were supposed to be there for an hour and a half. You know there'd be one or two of us and if I didn't have to go back to Forties in the afternoon, I'd stay all afternoon and I didn't really care. So it was, you know. So I sort of without you know, I'd shown sort of willing, but it was more. I enjoyed it. I loved being around it um, so I, I, you know it sort of came um, but come the COVID time I was kind of the guy that they asked and and again. A long background in football and, uh, been with the Caps ever since and that was a very long protracted thing that should have lasted 30 seconds but lasted way too long. I apologize.

Eric: 22:12

No, you know what? If people don't want to listen, they can just fast forward. I think it was great. I thoroughly enjoyed that. Richard, thanks for sharing. No.

Rich: 22:19

I appreciate it.

Eric: 22:19

Because I think it's. I mean, one thing I wanted to get was like, you know, we all have our own stories, right, and we all like how do we end up where we are? And we all go through their experiences, and so I think it's valuable for, you know, hopefully people that are listening, if maybe they're not involved in football, maybe they're in baseball, hockey, whatever, or athletics of some kind Olympics. You know, it's interesting to hear how people got there, and so I appreciate you sharing that. I think it's great. I mean, personally, everyone that knows me knows I'm super passionate about football as well, and I still am. If I could play more, I would, but I've had numerous knee injuries and I'm supposed to go play with a bunch of over 45 guys tonight that I haven't played in a while and I'm thinking this could be terrible.

Rich: 23:07

But it's like make sure you enjoy it.

Eric: 23:09

That's all you need to do now, just yeah exactly, and so I like listening to your story because I think one thing you said too, it was like the passion for and the excitement for what doing, what you're doing, and I think that's such a huge thing, particularly in our world of massage therapy, like Like there is a lot of options out there for us that I think we don't realize. I think a lot of us just think I got to go work at a clinic and I got to massage people and that's all I can do, but there is other opportunities out there A hundred percent, I mean it is.

Rich: 23:46

I was, you know, I taught and I would say that sort of 80 to 90 percent of the people that graduate out of school. That's what they're going to do. They're going to go work, um, in a clinic. They might open their own clinic. They're going to go work with another massage therapy clinic, a physio clinic, chiropractic clinic, and and that's a great start. And I think what happens to people is and I used to sort of talk to students a lot about it I said, you know, don't get in a rut. Don't get in a rut of just doing that, because it's very easy to get into. That's what I call practitioner mindset, where here I'm busy, I'm working four days a week, life is good, da, da, da da. But in the back of your mind thinking, oh, I was going to do that. You know, I was going to open, particularly open a clinic. You know people say for us, you know, we, I had signed on the dotted line release before I'd done my board exams, you know, and it was just like, yeah, that's what we're going to do. And we did it. We were passionate about it, did it. We were passionate about it, um, and, and you know, I'd never really I knew people who were working full-time in professional sports, in coaching capacities, um, I remember speaking to um a guy called richard wong who was the clinical director back in the early 90s at wccmt, and he told me about his education and he'd come through WCCMT and all he wanted to do was become a full-time massage therapist with the sports team and, and he and he did two.

Rich: 25:11

Two years after he graduated he was full-time with the Canucks and he said that was my dream job, but he hated it. You know, by the end of the year he lasted a year with him. He said I absolutely hated it. And you know, we'll talk about it later probably, but it's not for everybody. But you have to go and find what it is that you want to do with your education and your skill set and go, seek it out. And that doesn't mean you have to do it immediately. But don't let that dream, whatever you want to call it, disappear into the back of your head and go. It's never going to happen.

Rich: 25:46

Um, you know, always sort of keep it, you know, in mind and sort of. You know, get, get there somehow, um, and seek how you get there. And then, because there are lots of different options, you have, um, and I think you can, you know, you, it's very easy to get into that rut of just, oh, you know, and I, I call it. You know, I remember working at 40 years and we were, we were very, very big on collaboration, integration, as we are working with the whitecaps as well, and it was really interesting in that people, um, they didn't really get that until they worked there and it was very difficult for people to understand what it was to properly collaborate and integrate. Yeah, it was, it's. There's a lot you can do. There's a lot you can go and do and just make sure that you keep it in mind, that's for sure keep it in mind, but that's for sure.

Eric: 26:47

Yeah, I like, I like that. That point too is that the um, you have to pursue your dreams. You have to keep them, at least keep them in the forefront of your mind, because if you don't, then you're probably going to regret it, and so I would rather pursue something and be like and that I was really passionate about, and think this is terrible yeah yeah, but at least having experienced that and said, hey, I'm glad I did that, it wasn't for me.

Rich: 27:06

Yeah.

Eric: 27:08

You know and some of the things you said, too, really resonated with me too about, you know, owning a clinic. Like I never really wanted to own a clinic out of school, but it kind of happened. It's kind of out of just life we had a lease that was working for somebody else. The lease went up, he was going to go somewhere else and I was like, oh, I have a practice here, oh, let's become partners.

Eric: 27:27

and we opened a clinic and it was good but, anyone that's listening if they worked for me in the last couple years or worked with me last couple years, I I was a terrible clinical. I was totally didn't have nothing.

Eric: 27:36

I didn't have anything to do with it yeah like I just wanted it to go away because I just didn't have the passion for, for working in that clinical environment, because my education and teaching and other stuff, which is what I was had been more passionate about, that's what was taking all my energy and all my focus, and the clinic felt like, yeah, it wasn't for me I would say for me at the beginning I, I, I was, you know, I loved every minute I.

Rich: 28:06

I but for three or four months post, sort of at the end of the last year, I was really working hard on on um we've got a Peloton and I was really getting on that and I decided I was funny enough I was, I was taking the car up to uh to get a service. I put um 30th for me and there was a clinic that's just opened up there and I'd seen them on Instagram and they're on Instagram every day posting and good on them they're doing their thing and that's great. And I thought, hmm, I'm going to go in and get some treatment. And I remember walking into the clinic and getting that. Oh yeah, I remember this feeling Because they weren't even open yet, they'd had a soft opening and they were going hard opening in the year.

Rich: 28:45

And I sort of walked in and went oh yeah, you can feel the energy, you can feel that you know they care about the light bulbs, they care about this, they care about that and it's, it's. And you know they cared about you, the patient, and I think this is you know we'll talk later about how important that stuff is becoming and how you know we don't realize how important it is and and you know it was like wow, okay, yeah, this place is. I remember this. I've been this sort of wow, this flashback of that keenness that wants to to do well and that want to be a part of the community and it was great and uh, yeah, and you know, I hope for them that it stays with them, you know, forever. For me it went like this it was a journey, it was a rollercoaster ride. You know, I had a business partner who was a great guy. But having a business partner is like you see your business partner more than you do your wife.

Eric: 29:37

Oh 100%.

Rich: 29:39

And you know you've got to have a bloody good relationship with them, because if you don't, you know it can get sticky from time to time and for the most part we were fine. There were times when it wasn't great, but you know. But you just get to a stage where do I really want to do this anymore? Um, and I know I made a great decision. I remember walking in at 40th and just the people there were fabulous, the practitioners I got to work with, the amount of learning I did there you know I'd been practicing for what? 15 years or whatever, it was 20 years um, and the amount of learning I started to do there, working with sport chiros, working with sport physios, working with other massage therapists who were passionate about working in sport, and it was just, it was a, a daily drip of oh, that's interesting, how did you do that daily drip of? You know, and that's how I learned better.

Rich: 30:30

I I'm not a big one for, you know, going out and doing courses and all that sort of some modality based learning. I've never been. I've done some of it. I don't learn it, I'm not very good at it, um, but going in and that, that constant drip of watching other people, practicing, talking to other people and learning from other people. And you know, I remember doing a.

Rich: 30:53

We used to do think tanks every month where we'd all get together we'll practice there'll be 50, 60 practitioners there and other people working at 40s and we'd get together and we would talk about. It could be anatomy of the hip, it could be anything. And I remember one time rick celebrini and dr jerry ramagida. Now jerry was the um seattle seahawks, sport cairo. Rick is now head of medical for um golden state warriors. So these are, these are, you know, people who know their stuff. And I'm going in there expecting to get these wonderful words of wisdom, um, but not expecting what the words of wisdom. Well, the words of wisdom was is, as practitioners, we've got to start listening to our patients, and that's all jerry said. He said if you listen to your patient long enough, they'll tell you what's wrong with them I love it we've got to stop trying to jump in.

Rich: 31:47

And I've taken that on board and I'm like, okay, yeah, that's you know. Because I look at myself saying, yeah, I'm you know, oh, you got pain there. Well, that'll be this, that and the other, that, the down, you know, I know best, and that sort of thing, and I kind of thought, oh, these guys are, uh, you know, uh, uh, the top of the top of what they do. And you know they're saying stop, just stop and listen for a while.

Eric: 32:08

And so it'll learn a lot, a lot while I was there and I'm very grateful for my time there- yeah, that's so, that's so powerful and that's it's so good to hear you say that, because you know the learning, best clinical practice from the people that are experienced, on top and top of their game, so to speak, is hugely valuable. And it's nice to hear that because you know, like just listen and they'll tell you right. And that's something that we talk about all the time. And if we go from an academic perspective, and what's the research say? It says the same frigging thing. It's like just listen to your people, like ask questions but spend most of your time listening rather than like trying to like narrow down to find the problem and so you can fix it. You know they'll tell you, but it's so different from how most of us I can put the air quotes. Most of us in the MSK world are educated.

Rich: 32:58

Yeah, I would agree. I think there is that. I think I, you know, I worked in the schools for 18 years and I'm a big fan of the schools. I think they do a good job. I think where they're struggling is, and where our profession is struggling, is that it's. You can do whatever modality you want and you can do it, and whether it works or not is you know, it's the narrative that we have to change. That's for me, anyway. There's the rhetoric and the narrative around what we do.

Rich: 33:31

I, when I started practice, you know, there I was shirt tight telling people someone would come in some guy's sitting over a computer all day and he's traps or whatever, and you know you'd sit there and go oh yeah, you've got trigger points in your traps. Now what's a trigger point? Shown the chart, and then start to mumble on about ischemic compression and actinomyofilaments releasing and allowing oxygen into the blood and all this. And I could literally thankfully it's out of my head now, but I could talk to go through that pattern in my sleep um, and that's what we were taught and that's what we would. You know that. That's where now, does doing compression on a trigger point quote unquote trigger point help? Yeah, it might well do and that patient might feel better afterwards.

Rich: 34:15

But I think we we as massage therapists are very much sort of we're trying to justify our existence to a certain extent, and so we have to come up with pseudoscience. And and we're not the only ones, I mean there's other, you know, physios do it, osteopaths do it, chiros probably do it but we we sort of try to justify our existence. I I always smile is that the right word? I smile, but I listen to. I listen to a lot of different podcasts now. I listen to a lot of different podcasts now and listen to a lot of people and I find it really interesting. I love listening to other people talk about their their um experience and what they do, and, and I always get something out of it.

Rich: 34:55

Um, and one of the things you sometimes hear is or, with the bottom rung of the ladder, you know like okay, but if you look at yourself as the bottom rung of the ladder, you know like okay, but if you look at yourself as the bottom rung of the ladder, nobody else, everybody else is going to look at you as the bottom rung of the ladder. You've got to stop looking at yourself like that and understand that what you provide is unique, it's needed, it's helpful, um, and, and don't view yourself that way, because if you, if you view yourself that way, you haven't got a chance, you know. But people still do. But, and that's okay, I get it. But you know, change the change in mindset. You know, change the mindset, change the rhetoric of what we do.

Rich: 35:33

Um, you know, my daughter's in physio school right now. She's just finishing up and she's doing her education at a uh, a school in london, in england, and you know they have a very evidence-based approach. And you know, I was at work the other day and she phoned me we were chatting about and we were talking about something I can't remember, it was a medical thing, and she said, oh yeah, you massage therapist, you think you can. I said, oh, hang on, we're gonna have this conversation. And I had to to go. Someone was like wait a minute. I said, oh, to be continued, she goes. Oh, yeah, okay. So we haven't continued the conversation as yet, but yeah, I could go. We haven't talked about it in Whitecaps at all and we're about half an hour in, but I could go off on that tangent for hours.

Eric: 36:25

Reel me back in. Yeah, maybe, maybe part two. No, it's great, but I, I like we said, because this is something that that I experienced and I feel too is that the the need to justify our existence right is, is huge, because, you know, now we're obviously generalizing, there's people that probably think that we're the top and some people but I think the majority of the conversations I have with people I don't is that representative of the population, of our profession, who knows? But I get that all the time like, oh well, you know it's, we're just, we don't have a degree, we're not a degree program, right, or you know we're, we're viewed as just body rubbers and um, and so there's this. I think what happens is that there's this, like you said, there's this extra level of complexity that we feel we need to explain or to validate what it is that we're doing or why it's working, and I think that just gets in the way of like just delivering good quality care to people.

Rich: 37:21

And I think we're a very insecure profession. You know, I said and people are going to get angry with that maybe I don't know, but I think we are insecure. And if you don't think we are, then why is it that you look at, you know, various online pages with massage therapist stuff on it and it's like it's cyclical every 18 months somebody wants us to change our name, you know, and historically it's, we need to be manual therapists and I go, oh my god, I remember 1994, being at the old physio um massage therapy as a um college. Well, I forget what's called apmp, was it called? I can't remember the old uh college when we were in the physio college back then, um, and somebody getting up then and saying we need to change our name to manual therapists and physio getting up. So actually manual therapy is a protected title, whatever it was for physiotherapists and and it's cyclical. It happens all the time like we just let it's. You know why? Why do you want to change your name? Why massage therapy is a pretty good um title for what we do.

Rich: 38:25

You know, and yes, I know, there's people out there doing all sorts of wonderful things and good on them. They're taking their profession off into their own little world. That's great, fantastic. But at the end of the day, the vast majority of massage therapists you know what they go in. They see six patients a day. They perform massage, they use their modalities, they use whatever. They see. Six patients a day, they perform massage, they use their modalities, they use whatever they use on patients and that's it. At the end of the day they walk away and they've done.

Rich: 38:49

And if that patient walked away, and what did you do today, dear? Oh, I went and got a massage. That's what we do, you know. Don't be upset about it, because you're probably damn good at it, because our education here, you know, like I, I'll stick up for our education in many ways, because I think it is good. Can it change? Can the narrative change? Can the way that they do things? Can it be more evidence-based? Yes, but we all kind of know the battles that you know private school systems have with that and board exams and all that sort of stuff. That's a fight to be continued, or a better fight, just a a uh, you know a challenge to be continued, I think yeah, yeah, and that's, that's a good one.

Eric: 39:28

I mean, I I talk about this stuff all the time, so I don't need to to go into that, but the the first thing that I would like and then some of the work that I've done with a couple of the schools in canada, uh, is basically the first thing that comes down to is just changing kind of the narrative and understanding. Because if we think incorrectly, then we often will communicate incorrectly and then you know, is that information harmful to somebody? Probably not, but we should have, we should have that obligation to be less wrong with our communication and our thinking. Because you know someone comes in and they sit in front of like you use that example, they sit in front of computer all day and they've got the. You know someone comes in and they sit in front of like you use that example, they sit in front of computer all day and they've got the.

Eric: 40:05

You know the tight upper body traps and you know, do they care if there's trigger points there? Probably not. Yeah, you know they. They're like most I'm like. Why do I hurt? What can I do? Well, can you, maybe, let's, maybe, let's get you moving a little bit better. Let's, let's give you some options so you're not sitting or standing in one way all the time, like I don't think we need to complicate it no, no, but again, I think we do and I know I did, I'll put oh, I did I.

Eric: 40:26

Yeah, me too. I used to make it so complicated I wanted to justify my existence.

Rich: 40:30

So I wanted to show you that that you know, pain you got behind your temple was a referred pain from a trigger point up here and it was. It was almost like you know, especially with people who were coming in, who were referred from doctors who were like men typically, who came in and they were like I, uh, my doctors told me to come here. I'm not sure what goes on. It's a massage place. I've never had massage before, etc. Etc. And you're like okay, and you wanted to to sort of justify yourself to them and you do your treatment. They may or may not feel better. Often they did and you give them some exercises, give them some movement stuff, some stretching, strengthening and all that stuff, and they'd come back and it's oh yeah. And you know, I remember the first time I went in with my wife it was like, oh, this wasn't what I was expecting, but we can still be that without having the pseudoscience around it.

Eric: 41:23

Yeah, yeah, I agree a hundred percent. And then my first experience getting massaged when I was, I think it was 19, and it was not at all what I expected at all and it was in a good way, like I was like, oh, this is, it was very. It was very like sporty, orthopedic key kind of like it was. For people that don't know, yeah, I, you know, in bc we, I, I remember going and it was like cost me like 10 bucks because msp, you know, medical service covered most of it and they're like you know it was like a 20, 30 minute appointment and uh, you know, it was like very specific and to the point and we just worked on the areas that were sore and gave you some exercises and it was good. It wasn't the the kind of relaxation, full body, 60 minute kind of thing which is very common now, for in a lot of people's practices it's very, very different yeah, no, I.

Rich: 42:08

I like I said I enjoyed that that time working like that, but it's just the narrative needed to change. Yeah yeah.

Eric: 42:18

so yeah, let's, uh, let's, let's kind of segue then into the we're running out of time here about, about working with the white caps, and that's fine, we can. We can talk as much as we want on this stuff. So I guess you know, okay, you kind of told us about how you got the job, but like, tell us a little bit like what's a, what's a week or a day look like for you when you're working.

Rich: 42:36

So yeah, so I so. So if you start at the beginning of the season, we go on pre-season for two months, two months, and most of that is spent away from Vancouver. This year we were in Palm Desert and we were in Marbella in Spain, and the reason we do that is because you can't trust the weather here. Fields might be iced over and you just want to be in a warm weather climate to do train. So pre-season training is um, it's a lot of hard work. It's a lot of two days. So players are training in the morning, they'll come back in um, they'll have lunch and then later on that afternoon they'll be back out. As a therapist it's also really busy because you're basically beginning the day. You're up, um, I'll be doing treatment in the morning before we go to training. So that's kind of not your um. I wouldn't say it's your typical pre-event type treatment. It's more pre-training treatment. So it's more mobility work. It's more um sort of getting people ready to go out and and train, knowing that they've got prehab to do before training. They've also then got trained a warm-up, a dynamic warm-up, during training. Um come back in. You may do some treatment straight after training as well. Then it's then a couple of hours of downtime. Then again we start up again with pre-training treatment window. You're treating players, come back in dinner and then typically there'll be a two or three hour window for treatment after dinner. So it's a long day. A typical sort of training day in pre-season for me will start at probably 7 38 o'clock in the morning, um breakfast or what have you, and typically won't finish till 10, 10, 11 o'clock at night, um, and that's not every day for two months, but that's a pretty typical day. Um, obviously there'll be game days in there as well, where that that changes it. But that's your, um, your your typical cycle of a pre-season day.

Rich: 44:51

Um, you know, and then, uh, that you've got a lot of travel. You've got you as a massage therapist, as anybody. You're doing all sorts of other things too, um, you, you're not just you know. I know a couple of people who worked in sport who's going to say no, no, I'm, I'm a massage therapist. I don't lug bags and I don't do kit. I don't do this. You help out wherever you're needed, um, and that doesn't matter who you are. Yeah, that's typical of that. So it is a busy, busy day.

Rich: 45:18

Um, you know, we didn't take our dietician to marbella with us this year. So during training, um, you know I'm the pseudo dietitian. I'm preparing all the protein drinks. You know we couldn't get the right protein that we wanted over there, so we had to take our own protein, and that was mixing protein. So I'm, you know, um, lovingly and jokingly known as opening the shake shack after training for everybody, and different players have different dietary needs, and you know. So you're preparing all of that stuff for them and that's what you do. And then you haul it all back to the hotel, get it washed and get ready. So you're doing multiple little jobs outside of your main role, and that will be typical of pre-season.

Rich: 45:58

This year we also went to Mexico in the middle of it all because we had to play um onca calf champions cup games, um, so we had a trip down to mexico where we were two or three days down there, played down there, and then came back up, went to victoria and played a game there. Um, so it's busy, you, you, you got a month into pre-season and you just yearn for the regular season because it's more literally regular for your day as well. Um, getting, we've just started the season, so we've had two games, uh, typical day um in the season. It is in at 7 30 we'll have a 7 45 medical meeting. Um, go out for breakfast, come, come back down uh. Pre-treatment, um, or sorry, pre-training treatment window. Um, guys go and do some prehab as well out on the training ground and then back in, uh, and then there's another treatment window there before and for me during the lunch, lunch time, uh, and then you'll sort of be treating into the early afternoon and that will be a typical day. During training I will, if there's players we've got on RTP programs so return to play programs that are injured. You know I might be working with them. If we're fortunate enough to have all our RTP guys out on field doing work on field, then I might go out and help the ATs. I might be doing water bottles, I might be just covering the field and doing that. That would be typical of a training day.

Rich: 47:38

Travel days are long days. Travel days are essentially you go in and do a full training day and then we travel to the airport early afternoon. We're at the airport for 2 o'clock, flight goes at 3,. Wherever you're going this week, we just got back from San Jose. On Friday we go to Dallas and you know you're flying down to San Jose. You get to San Jose, set up a treatment room and that's the traveling party in the medical world will be a head physio, two of ATs and myself and we travel to every game. So you're in, you're setting up the clinic essentially, and there's Normatex and game ladies and nutrition. That all has to be set up whilst the players are eating. We then go eat. Players come in for a treatment window afterwards. So my day will start at 7 30 am and on, I think on friday it ended probably about 10 o'clock and then you're uh, then you're up for game day.

Rich: 48:41

Game day is a kind of is always an interesting one because it's kind of a hurry up and wait day. There are multiple meals. I mean there's breakfast, there's a snack, there's lunch, there's a post game meal. So you work around that. But it's often players are very specific. Most players are very specific with their needs. So I'll have a particular player who said we go out for an activation walk at about 11 o'clock and after activation I come and do a treatment on him Pre-activation. I'll have another player who likes to get that before the activation, pre-game.

Rich: 49:20

Depend on the player. There'll be certain things that certain players like specifically to get done um, so you kind of your treatment window is very small, uh, pre-game, you know, your treatment window, maybe an hour total, um, and if you're away from home it's less than that. At home it's a little bit longer, but if you're away from home it's less than that and you've got to be quick at what you do and you've got to know what you're doing and know what that player wants and go through it quickly and go through your, you know, quick assessment quickly with them. Often that assessment is, you know, so you need a usual stuff. Yeah, any problems this week, any issues? No, it's been fine. You've probably treated them during the week anyway. So you're on that continuity of treatment and then it's going and do what you do, um, get what they need out of it. Then in, out for warm-ups and you're helping. I'll be helping outside, outside, helping the warm-ups. If it's just getting balls or taking water or doing anything like that, I'll be on field doing that.

Rich: 50:18

Um, again, part of my job is preparing the um, the dressing room at halftime. So myself and head physio, we we don't sit on the bench, we can stand by the bench, or we might go up into a box, or we might stay in the changing room or we might watch the game from the tunnel. But you know, 10-15 minutes before halftime we go back in and prepare the dressing room. So that's nutrition table. You know, one of the equipment guys will be in there putting that out second half kit, second half shirts, that sort of stuff. So you're preparing bananas, blocks, caffeine, electrolytes, all that sort of stuff. So when the players come in, it's 15 minutes and it has to be seamless. You have to be able to do everything well, very quickly and it's kind of everybody knows their job, the, the coaches will go into the uh, there'll be a coach's room. They'll go into there for three to five minutes just to discuss second half changes, tactics, whatever it may be. And that's my time when I typically I've got a plate of bananas, a plate of blocks which are like glucose gummies and I'm walking around just going.

Rich: 51:28

Any problems, any issues? You okay, any problems to each player? Um, sure, no problems. If you've been treating them during the week or you'd treat them pre-game, how's that ankle feeling? How does this go? You've got it kicked in the.

Rich: 51:39

You know, you're always watching the game to see if players get injured. Now you've got two medical professionals, two ATs, on the bench and that's their job to attend to players during the game. But you're also watching the game. We have a physio that doesn't travel with us, eddie, and he'll you know he'll text me, did you see that? What so-and-so just happened to so-and-so? Because he's watching the game back home. So you're very on it during the game, the games. I only see probably about an hour of the game because I'll be doing stuff in the dressing room, getting stuff ready or what have you. But when you're out there you're trying to be as a football person, you're kind of enjoying the game, but as a medical person you're trying to be OK. What happened here? What happened there? Is he OK? How's he looking?

Rich: 52:24

You know you might have a player who has just got back from an injury and is he looking fatigued? Does he need to come off? And you know we'll have those make those decisions. Well, I don't make those decisions. I help observe and help contribute to those decisions if they need to be made. But typically there's other people that are doing that. So that would be a typical game day, a typical travel day.

Rich: 52:51

Game days at home are basically the same but we go in earlier. If it's a 7 o'clock kickoff, I'll be in around 4 o'clock in the afternoon and help set up and go, go through the same, essentially the same stuff there. Um, we work on a on a game day minus four, game day minus three, game day minus two, game day minus one. Um, so periodization, that the micro cycle or the real micro, something mini micro cycle of that is that weekly thing. So tomorrow, for instance, we go into game day minus four. So I know tomorrow there will be a significant load on the players. Um, game day minus three is the biggest load on the players in terms of what they uh, the amount of stress that they'll be put through physically on field.

Rich: 53:39

Um, so you kind of know that we have very accurate resources and technology to tell us exactly what a player's done. They all wear catapult monitors. So I get a report every day. All the medical team, all the performance team, get a report every day of what a player did the day before. Well, we actually get it an hour or so after the training session and the game so I can look at that data and I can tell you how far someone ran, how much high speed distance they did, how much sprint distance they did, how many individual sprints they did, different IMAs, which is how much their body moved in certain situations, and so you build a picture from that.

Rich: 54:21

So, on the plane coming home I'll get that and I'll look at it and go, okay, might have a recovery day. The next day will be a recovery day, potentially or we do 48 hours afterwards, um two days after. You know I can get glean some information from that. If someone's done, you know, uh, 12, 13k and they normally do 11k, you might expect, okay, he's going to come in, might come in a couple of days and say, yeah, I'm feeling really heavy, my legs are heavy, I've got a lot of doms going on, um, so you can glean some information from that. Um, but it's more you know, um the uh conversations you have with players.

Rich: 55:00

I'll be on the plane, you know, watching a movie or something. I'll go for a walk back to the plane, you know, watching a movie or something, and I'll go for a walk back to the plane and just check in with a few guys. How are you feeling? How are you doing? Yeah, all right, I'm a bit sore. You know, on a day like today with certain players, I'll go in Even though it's a day off for us. I'll text the guy and say how are you feeling? Do you mind coming in? Yeah, okay, sort of typical working life as an RMT, working in a, in a, in a professional sports team.

Rich: 55:32

Um, I'm very lucky and I'm blessed to do what I do. I work with some fantastic people. I mean some people that you know. You know I have Wint, miss Franks, jp, john Polly. You know a lot of these people. You know their knowledge and their understanding of what they do. You know data science or performance physio, whatever you know. I'm very lucky to work with them on a daily basis and you learn every day and you listen every day and you contribute in medical meetings that they will turn around to me and say what do you think? So you contribute in those meetings? Um, and you better contribute those meetings because if you sit there with and have nothing to say, it's like what are you doing there? So I'm very lucky in the integration and collaboration I had a medical and sort of that side of it Ben Spore. He's done a good job of making sure that our integration and collaboration is phenomenal. How much we're always, you know, talking to each other in meetings. There's so much data that it's collected. Um, you know, it is, it's uh, it's, it's quite staggering. People know, I often think, you know, people come and they will talk to me and they'll say, oh, I really, you know, talk to other rmts and you can tell they know that you're so lucky to work. You know, and I am, but it's not for everybody, you know, I, I kind of, if I go back a little bit, I, I did the traditional sort of rmt involved in sport type thing where I would go and work different events, um, starting from in school, doing 10k runs, and we worked at that, working at marathons.

Rich: 57:04

The hardest day of work I ever did was like that. I mean, I worked, uh, when I was recovering from cancer. I, um, I did the right to conquer cancer and I said, oh, I wanted to do RMT split. They did it over two days back then and I'll join the RMT team and I'll come in and get Robin out. Really, look forward to it. And there wasn't a massage therapist. There me, two other guys, one was a chiro, one was a massage therapist and we started working. This first cyclist came in about 11, 11, 12 o'clock in the morning, was surrey down to halfway to seattle and we didn't stop working till four in the morning. And it was just you couldn't. Because this line was just there and it was just like, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was nuts, so it's, it's not for everyone, because you know, you, you're, I'm immersed in it.

Rich: 57:57

You know I'm lucky enough that I have a family. My kids are grown now, they're young adults. Um, my daughter doesn't live, lives in england. My son lives with us but he's finishing up his education. Um, my wife knows how much I love what I do and she's kind of like, yeah, because you're away from your family a lot, if you've got a young family, it's tough and we have people, young families, and it's tough and it's not easy.

Rich: 58:21

Um, and even if you don't have a young family, you know you can't. You know if you play on a sports team yourself, you really can't because you're busy every weekend. So you're doing something every weekend. I really don't differentiate between Tuesday and Saturday anymore, apart from one is probably a game day and one's a training day. So your weekends are not your own.

Rich: 58:43

So when you do get, you know we've just had two days off. I'm on day two of two days off and we never get two days off. You know, this is like wow, I've got a second day off. This is fabulous, you know, and we're also. We'll get back in and said, I mean, you see, we've got another two days coming up and then we'll be four months one day off. And that one day off may be a day after you've arrived on a plane at four o'clock in the morning, um, and that your next day's off and you're back to work. So it's not for everybody. Um, I, I take my hat off to you know people who work in that, so I would call that typical sports massage therapy life, and that they're going in and they're working with the team and then they're back to work at clinic. I, I know that for me it was. It was very much a case of I enjoyed doing that, but I, I, I did really have that sort of yearning to work.

Eric: 59:37

I'd love to work full-time with the team, um, and I I'm very lucky to do that I really enjoy it, so yeah, well the way you describe that right, and thanks for sharing all that's tons of. That's a fantastic amount of information and just like fills a lot of gaps of things. I have no idea how they work, so I appreciate you taking the time to explain. That was appealing to some people and to you, and I think it would be appealing to someone that was the one to work in sport or someone that was heavily loved football, whatever the sport is that they're interested in. Uh, you're fully integrated with the team. It sounds like you know all the players you that they're interested in. Uh, you're fully integrated with the team. It sounds like you know all the players. You're, you're part of the. You're like, you're, you're in there with the medical team, unlike that traditional approach where people just come in, they work, they give massage and they leave like you're there and you're.

Rich: 1:00:21

You're not doing massage all day no, I mean, I, I, you know, I remember, um, you know, working with other sports organizations, and you'd have the ATs, physios, chiros, whatever it may be, the sports medicine people, and then, oh yeah, the massage room's down there and I'd be like, yeah, okay, it's great being there, it's great doing that, but I want to be in that room, I want to be in those meetings, I want to be part of that, I want to be fully integrated in this. And that's where, you know, when you become fully excuse me, fully integrated in it, you kind of go, wow, okay, there's a lot to this, um, and it's very different from you know, and there's people, I think, who, who, like I say, would want to do it. But you come into it, it's, it's a you know, it absorbs you, it you know it does me anyway I can't say that for everybody, probably I don't know, but it does it.

Rich: 1:01:13

But you know, I mean I'm very, very lucky. You know, in the at the end of the season I get, you know, the better part of two months off fully paid. Not many rmts can say I get two months off fully paid. So you know, I'm extremely fortunate and lucky. Now the irony of that is, at the end of the season I enjoy the first week to 10 days and then I want to go back to work. You know, I sort of sit there going, okay, what I'm going to do today, okay, I'll walk dog, I'll get on the peloton, I'll maybe do a lift, I'll. You know, I will go out with my wife, we're going to do this. But I'm kind of like, you know, I'm ready to go back to work, um, and I I, you know, and that'll go out with my wife, we'll go and do this. But I'm kind of like, you know, I'm I'm ready to go back to work and I, you know, and that's why I sort of go back about that. You know, that passion of when I owned a clinic, I didn't have that, and then now, that's why I consider myself extremely lucky and blessed really to to, to, to do what I do, because you, you know, I enjoy every minute of it. Um, you know, travel days I'm up at you know six o'clock, whatever it is, and into work meetings at seven, something, still working at 10 o'clock, uh, so what? Yeah, I've loved every minute of it and you are, you're very much integrated with the team and that's a really, it's a really interesting one. When it comes to the courses that we've all had to recently do and the relationships that you're allowed and not allowed to have and you should and shouldn't have with patients, I see these guys every day. I can firmly say there are people who I've become friends with, who are ex-players, who are players that used to play at a club, some that play at a club now. I'm invited to weddings. I'm, you know I go. I do keep a professional distance, but I'll also, you know I'll.

Rich: 1:03:04

Also, when we were I'll give you an example when we were in Salt Lake, there was one particular player who I think he was struggling, but he was kind of lonely and what have you and I, you know, went okay, I'm going to take him golfing. And we went golfing, just gave him that sort of. We were in Salt Lake for four months during COVID. They moved the whole club down there. So you have it's a little bit of pastoral care sometimes in our work and it's a little bit of you know, and we spend more time.

Rich: 1:03:34

And I remember chatting with our um performance site guy. Dr cox was a hall of fame, you know, guy, and a wonderful man. I can listen to him all day talking um. But you know, I, I remember getting into it with a young player and sort of you know thinking OK, am I overstepping my boundary here? And I remember going to talk to him about it and he said you are doing a fantastic job with him.

Rich: 1:03:57

Do not stop what you're doing, because you've created a connection with him and it is benefiting him. I know it's benefiting him because I'm talking. So don't stop. You're not crossing any lines. You're not doing anybody else's job because it's whilst you always have other things to do, you better stay in your lane as well. You know. You need to understand that.

Rich: 1:04:19

You know I, I, I, you know I have an instagram account. It's not a work instagram account, although I'm thinking of setting one up, but it's more I. I follow a lot of other rmts online. I think you wouldn't do well in that situation. You think you would do well, but you wouldn't, because you want to be off doing that and you want to be off doing something else and you want to be off doing things. That if you come in as an rmt, be an rmt, that's your job. Yes, you're going to. You know, slowly but surely, you'll get trusted and you'll get and you'll start to do other things that they want you to do. Um, but stay in your lane is is a big part of it, but it's difficult because you stay in your lane but there's a hell of integration and collaboration that goes on, so you know um, but that's that's kind of a skill that you learn when you come into it yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's the thing I've heard that before from talking to other people about.

Eric: 1:05:10

You know, working in sport is like like you have your role and like don't question, you know, you just kind of you have those expectations for you, and I think that's probably a pretty valuable piece of information for people to understand once you get in there.

Rich: 1:05:24

It's like I remember when I first got asked why, nine years ago, I went away with the team for the first time. I went away with the team. We were away for a 10-day road trip and at the end of it the ops manager and the head AT we went out for dinner and they were like, if we had a full-time job, would you want it? And I'm like no, because you were like so good this last 10 days you did this, you did that when stuff needed hauling off buses you did that. You were available for treatment all the time to the players and I thought I was just doing what I thought was the right thing.

Rich: 1:06:00

I didn't think I was doing anything special, um, but apparently that's not always the case. You know, people come in and they they don't not particularly with us, I wouldn't say. But you know, I've heard of it from you know, I'm trying to liaise with other um rmt's. Part of what I'm trying to do is liaise with other rmt's in the league because the dieticians all have a whatsapp group and the ats have an association there and I'm kind of like, okay, we need to sort of set up with the rmt's, because not all clubs have a full-time RMT and start a little thing there maybe a sort of somewhat educational thing and find out what life's like in your club and what it's like at my club and we can meet up and we come down there or you come up here and just perhaps start to form a community, you know, and make it maybe have an educational piece to it. I don't know yet, but that's another sort of thing for the future I'm thinking yeah, I love it that's a great, that's a.

Eric: 1:06:52

That's a brilliant idea. And because so? I guess because you're the only rmt there you like? How long are treatments from? Like? They must be pretty quick if you have to see a bunch of yes so that's actually that's not true.

Rich: 1:07:05

We have um, uh, second I think her title is second assistant AT is also a trained massage therapist. Ok, so they, we hired them last year and it was like part of the hiring process was they needed. We are mandated to have three athletic therapists. The league mandate you have to have three athletic therapists and that's all you have to have as a medical team. Um, we're very fortunate in that we have a large medical team, um, but uh head at last year said to me look, you get soft tissue treatment gets utilized so much and you get sort of utilized so much. We're looking for an at slash rmt. So we have um, she emily's come on and so she does uh a lot of um soft tissue work as well and she's primarily doing an at role um, but she's also helping out me and um and that's been good because you know I get utilized a lot and it's so typically you know to answer your question treatments, depending on what I'm trying to do.

Rich: 1:08:17

So I will have uh one athlete who will not say, for instance, will not sort of come in when there's a lot of athletes, that he'll wait for everyone to leave and he'll get a treatment in the mid-afternoon when most of the players have left and the place is a little quieter, um, and that will generally be an hour and I'll spend an hour with him. Um, if it's a pre um, pre-training treatment, it might be. A guy might just come out and say rich, can you mobilize my right ankle? So I'll just do some mobilization stuff on his right ankle. That could be 10 minutes. Typically you're working pre-game um, you're working 15 minutes with an athlete, um, depending, again, depends on what they need, what they want and how many athletes want to utilize you before, before a game. Um, half time, it's five minutes, you know it's, it's quick, and so we play on different surfaces. You know we play on um field turf and we play on grass and so you know your different surface. Player will come and say, yeah, the car, my car's in back. Okay, there's a table. Well, I'll have the table in the changing room and the athlete might be on the table during the coaches talking to the team and highlighting something on the board and I'm not working there. That could be short as five minutes, um, so it depends on what you're doing post treatment. Uh, sorry, post training, typically a half hour treatment.

Rich: 1:09:40

It's what? Um, you know what we would call a flush? Um, it's a sports specific term in the massage therapy world and that's you know sounds. It's just basically a lot of effleurage and a lot of helping that athlete um, recover, um, so you, you know, and then, uh, recovery days a little longer. Uh, you're just doing basically recovery flashes. It's no great science in it, um, it's something that all rnts can do um. But again, I would challenge you that it's not so much it is what you're doing hands-on, but it's also that therapeutic alliance that you have with that athlete. That is what really makes a difference. That's what I think anyway. I think there's plenty of people probably can do just as good as I do hands-on, but it's that therapeutic alliance that you develop with individuals and as a group and with the team that you work with in terms of players and staff as well.

Eric: 1:10:41

So, yeah, so that would be a typical sort of timeline for treatments, yeah and that's an important point too, I think, to emphasize is to emphasize is the, you know, it's the relationships, that therapeutic alliance, because you know, particularly in sports, right, it's so much of it's psychological.

Rich: 1:11:00

Oh yeah, I mean it's it's. I can't, yeah, I can't sort of emphasize that enough because it is, it is and you do become. You know you, you gotta be, you be. You're very careful not to overshadow. You know, I've been a coach all my life. I coach at UBC now, so you know people say, well, don't get involved with the coaching, don't get involved with coaching. And I'm not, absolutely not. That is not my role. And if ever I had an athlete on the table and I started telling them what to do, you know I'd be out of my ear. You know I would. You know it's not what I'm there to do. You have to know what your role is.

Rich: 1:11:38

Now. Do we talk about the game? Do we talk about things that happened in the game, the sort of things that the opposition did or weakened, or could have done? You know for sure, all the time. But I don't cross that line, I don't. You know for sure all the time, um, but I don't cross that line, I don't, I don't know. You know, and so you have to know what you're doing.

Rich: 1:11:53

But you, it's just about developing the right relationships with athletes and that, uh, you know that relationship as a therapist and athlete it's. It's not always easy, um, but yeah, it's good, it's, it's what you're doing and I like that. I mean you know other people have. You know how many different patients they treat in a year. I treat typically about 27 guys a year, that's it. So you know some of those guys I'll treat four or five times a week, some guys once every three months. You know some guys don't like getting massaged. It's amazing what the traditional sports massage theory is and what it's like in real life for me. You know, because you'll get guys.

Rich: 1:12:39

I remember last year treating a couple of players. Both had played national team, both experienced players, and you know one was talking to the other and I was doing a quote-unquote release treatment on him, game day minus one, um, and he would come in everything every day would take me about half an hour, very specific, uh, hip thing and um, but it was very much really. And the other guy was saying the same said oh yeah, I'm on after you, okay, great, what are you, what are you getting done? So I'm just having a nice flush and he's going you get a flush game day minus one. Seriously, he's like oh yeah, wow, how are you? And it was almost like he was saying how are you able to play tomorrow when someone's massaged your legs like that the day before and I'm sitting there?

Rich: 1:13:24

really okay, it's different and you hear all the time, people have very specific needs. Now, if you look at the traditional sports massage theory and it's a good foundation to work on, but you know, I saw someone where it was Instagram or somewhere. You know go to Instagram, but you know it was. You can't do this with an athlete before going. Really, why not? Because I do that with several athletes and it's like crikey, why, um, we can no, why, what are we talking about? Okay, well, that's your, you do you, um, but they're very and athletes today are very in our world, are very knowledgeable.

Rich: 1:14:13

A lot of them are very knowledgeable. They won't come in and say, oh, you know, I'm outside of my hip set and they'll say can you just do some work on my TFLs? You know my rec fem. If you're just doing it for my rec fem, I need some psoas release. Or you know, you're like okay, let's get on the table and do some movement and see if that helps, rather than digging my hands through all your guts and everything um, very, very knowledgeable about.

Rich: 1:14:38

A lot of athletes are very knowledgeable. They, they realize that their, their career is short and you know so they, a lot of athletes. Now they get on the table and they want to know what's going on. They want to learn what's going on. They're not uh, back in my day it was more just oh, yeah, okay, just go and do what you have to do. Um, now it's. You know, I find a lot of athletes are very uh, very they want to be knowledgeable about what they're doing and what you're doing with them and what you're trying to help them with, and they think they're pretty good at that.

Eric: 1:15:07

Yeah, that's good, yeah like I said, there's so much more information available now, too, than there would have been when 100. I was younger, or when you were younger, right like I didn't know anything yeah, no, I, I, you know, I.

Rich: 1:15:19

I remember when I I um did my acl and everything. I remember that I swelled up pretty quickly. Um, they tested it because of the sweat and they really didn't get any good results from testing. And then the next day I went in and they, you know, I saw the club physio and he said, yeah, you've probably torn your acl. Um, I'm like, okay, what's that mean? And I'd done a degree in sport by this time. I really didn't know what that implied. Um, I knew what it was, but I didn't really know the implications of it. Again, you know, I remember.

Rich: 1:15:53

Now, you know every athlete knows that particular one and others. But I remember, you know, a game a good few years ago now. A young lad making his debut came on off the bench two minutes, knee injury came off and I was in the treatment room at the stadium and um, uh, orthopedic surgeon bob mccormick was there, rick salabrini was there and I watched um, an orthopedic doctor, do an assessment on a knee and I watched everything that went on and I could see, you could. It was pretty obvious what was going on and it was a. You know, everything's horrible to watch in some ways, but it was also watching um, someone go through that with him and he went through it, didn't say anything to him, did it and afterwards the way that he explained it to him and the way that he went through the structures of the knee and went through everything very calmly, and then the end of it said and you have, um, what feels like a complete rupture of your acl and this is the plan, this is what we're going to do.

Rich: 1:16:56

They'd already in his mind said tomorrow you're going to do this, you're going to come in, we're going to mri, we're going to do this and you're going to have probably have this surgery and we're going to go through it this way and it was just even things like that. You sort of okay, that's well. That was really good because he controlled the narrative with the athlete. The athlete knew and was visibly upset, but the way that it was done was was really really professional and, and you know, top drawer was and you learn from that. You need to learn from that. You need to pick up, okay, how he discusses stuff with athletes and take something from it all the time.

Eric: 1:17:34

I learned a lot from my injuries and observing how physios and the doctors and surgeons interacted with me and it's pretty powerful.

Rich: 1:17:45

Yeah, oh no, it is, it's. You know I don't think we often take enough account for if you're going to tell somebody that they've got a particularly significant injury, you know how you deliver that news. I listened to various podcasts. I was listening to what was it? The FMPA the Football Medical Practitioners Association podcast and they had sat on last week an orthopedic surgeon in England and he's done a lot of fabulous work in ACL reconstruction and I was listening to his stuff and he was saying that you know it's so important that when you're giving an athlete this news, that you're giving them a plan as well, you're not just hanging them up to dry. Now in our world we don't. I have done, uh, certainly when I was in. You know, general practice. You, you know you had weekend warriors come in in the morning. So what's wrong with my knee? You have to deliver that. You might have to deliver. You know it feels like this and this, you know, but it was just the way that he talked about making sure that they have a plan, making sure that, however bad the injury is, this is the plan going forward. This might end your career, but this is what we're going to do. This is how the plan is going to work. This is what you know we're going to do tomorrow. What can I do the next day? If you need surgery, we're not going to do it tomorrow because we want that knee to settle down. It's an angry knee right now and calm it down and go from there.

Rich: 1:19:13

And you, I think that's again, you know, for me, my, my learning experience is, you know, I struggled in school. I wasn't, I was struggling in in, you know, in high school, you know getting a degree was, was I had to work hard to get that or not hard, I would say. But you know, getting a degree was I had to work hard to get that or not hard, I would say. But you know, I then went into police force. I had to do nine months of law training and then medical training during massage therapy school and I struggled with it. So for me, I learned from that situation. I learned from excuse me, I learned more from watching other people work, listening to podcasts, listening to your stuff, you know, and the great stuff that you put out there and other people put out there and I don't get siloed into, I'm just listening to one set, what I that, that echo chamber of listening to your own stuff. I listen to stuff that I want. No, I'm not going to agree with, but I'll look for some learnings in it.

Rich: 1:20:11

Um, but I'm lucky that every day in the environment I work in and this is, I think, a big thing for rmts is you work in a closed space and most rmts you go into a closed space, you work, you come out, you work. So I'm very lucky I work in open space. I worked with, uh, dr eric. You was a performance car and I've learned a lot of stuff just watching him work. He now works with the canucks and you know, and chris, eddie, um, mike, you know, emily the people I work with work. I just, you know you're thieving stuff. Basically it's oh, how'd you do that? And I see some of the stuff I do appear on their tables from time to time.

Rich: 1:20:51

So you're always trying to. You know you can learn every day. You know I'm lucky for that.

Eric: 1:20:57

Well, and you can tell it resonates in how you're, just the way you speak about this, richard is the passion Some take-home messages I think for people listening is that if you're not passionate, yeah, you got something to be passionate about yeah, and it's not always easy.

Rich: 1:21:13

I tell them, you know my kids, you know, whatever you do, just be passionate about it. You know my daughter's um. You know she's right at the end of her physio training now and she loves it and she's she wants to go down the sports route, um, and she probably will my son's in the film industry. I tell him, you know, just love what you do, and if you don't love it, it's going to be a long old, 40 years of work. And you know, go out and do that. It's interesting you talk about. You know I get RMTs get in touch with me and that's great. And you know, is there any chance of work? And RMT's get in touch with me, and that's great. And you know, is there any chance of work? And it's that and the other. Sometimes we do try to get people in and sometimes most of the time we can't, but I'm always interested in what they think they need to do to give themselves a chance to get into full time professional sport. If that's what they want to do, I'm always sort of yeah, okay, you can go on to um. You know canadian sports massage therapy association I I'm not a member of that. I've never been a member of that, which is the way I wanted to go about it, but I'm sure they've got good stuff and go and be a part of that and that'll stand you in good stead, um, but in terms of education wise, I don't need you to go and do you know all sorts of different technique stuff. What I what I'm interested in is is you know, have you, have you done if it's soccer anyway, um, you know, have you done fifa's medical diploma? They have a free online medical diploma and it sounds very posh, you know. Good people ask me. I said oh yeah, I've done um fifa's medical diploma and it's, you know, it's not a medical diploma. It's a lot of great medical stuff and it I did it. I think I did it during covid and, and you know, it's an online course. You don't have to pay for it. It's free, but there's lots of great information in there.

Rich: 1:23:07

Um, the, the fmpa, have a um, a diploma. They call it um, which is I think it's called diploma, which is an entry into professional sport. So if you're a therapist and you want to get into professional sport, um, they have a course, an online course. You know, now I'm much more interested in people who've gone and done that, because that's preparing for you. How do you deal with data? How do you deal with multiple different things that you probably don't know that you're going to have to deal with if you get into full-time professional sport?

Rich: 1:23:42

You know, if you're really keen, university of Lancaster, do a medical football leadership master's. You know we've got one of our it's doing that. I very nearly signed up for it myself, um, but at nearly 60 years old I'm like, do I want to sign up to doing a master's now? And then a friend of mine who's an rmt as well, who's, you know, 25 years and he's great, he's doing a master's, um, a different. So he said, of course you do, just do it.

Rich: 1:24:11

I'm like, oh goodness, you know I never did well with formal education. I don't know whether it's up there for me, but that's, you know it's kind of like deviate a little bit from the norm. You know, go and seek stuff, go and find stuff, and I'm sure that there are other sports that have all that available to you too. And that's what I would be, um saying to to, uh, young therapists who want to get involved and want to do that. Then if you want to do the educational part of it, sure do all your courses that you would typically do and all those you know.

Rich: 1:24:45

If you want to do modality, different courses, you go do that. But I'm not going to sit here and look at all that stuff and go, wow, you can do this, that and the other. You did a weekend course in something that you know. Okay, it might be good, it might not be. It's a tool for you and you use it and good for you. Um, I'm more interested in people who have I would be more interested anyway, in people who have gone and gone sport specific and learned about what life is like working full-time in professional sport, because it's not like I say, it's not for everybody, um, it's, it's not, um, but yeah, that's that's sort of where I would go with it anyway, um, but for sure, but it's, you know everyone to their own age thing yeah, yeah, well, and things do is, you know, you're never too old to learn.

Eric: 1:25:33

You know, I, I did my master's when I was 40 and, uh, you know, at the time I felt like I was old to do, old to do it, and but now, you know don't let my family hear me say this but like I would, I would, I'd love to, but I love learning, I, I love, I love the education and so, uh, you know, if I was 60, would I, would I, if I had an opportunity to, to learn something, maybe yeah, I, I know m is doing it and and I was talking to her, I said, was that the one with mark levin?

Rich: 1:26:03

she said, oh, yeah, you know. I said yeah. He said, why are you doing it? I said, well, because in the thing it doesn't say that massage therapist can do it. It's all physios and I'm looking for an excuse. Yeah, or you know, you could send your thing in and they'd let you on the course. They for sure would want you on the course. I'm like, oh god, there's another reason I can't say no to it, but we'll see, I may, still, may, still do it.

Eric: 1:26:24

Yeah, love it. Love it. Well, thanks rich for today. That was fantastic. I really enjoyed the conversation. Lots of some more things we could talk about, so maybe we'll we'll get another one going on in the future, but I I enjoyed it. I hope I uh long-winded ah, that's okay, it was fantastic. So thank you, uh, good luck with the the road trip this weekend thank you appreciate it.

Rich: 1:26:46

Yeah, really do. Well done to all the work that you do as well. I really enjoy it.

Eric: 1:26:51

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Bye. I appreciate all your listeners for taking the time to be here. If you enjoyed this episode, please give it a five-star rating and share it on your favorite social media platforms. You can follow me on Instagram or Facebook at Eric Purvis RMT, and please head over to my website, ericpurviscom to see a full listing of all my live courses, webinars and self-directed course options. Until next time, thanks for listening.